Another reader of Say: Macedonia, leviathan, has come up with some arguments in our debate, in some of the previous posts, about the recognition by Canada and the discrimination of Macedonians in Greece. Let's try to get our facts straight and focused. We are having a general discussion on many issues at once, that is not so good if we want to reach understanding and conclusions. I'll try here to summarize the important points from my perspective, the way I see them.
Bilingual Sign (Macedonian - Greek): The sign was removed by order of the District Prosecutor and the office was burned and ransacked by a mob led by the town's mayor and including police officers.
1. I object to the wrong way Greece is treating Macedonians (among other ethnicities, but Macedonians especially, on this blog). I am not calling all Greek people Nazis, look better, those are your words (conclusion), not mine. I have repeatedly written here that I do not dislike Greek people, but I dislike your country's politics (I dislike some of Macedonia's politics, too, but that's another issue). Furthermore, I stand by the principles of us having different opinions and having every right to defend them, with respect to the differences. During that process, I follow another principle and try not to forget it: "attack the opinion, don't attack the person". I am aware that all countries are imperfect, and that by talking about issues we can resolve the problems. Internet allows us to put the issue on the table so that ordinary people like me and you can discuss it, and I consider that an opportunity we should exploit. I believe that the problem with the name is a fabrication by your politicians, which (obviously) turned out to be something they cannot handle well. My country was "Macedonia" formally for 70 years now, even for Greece, but the issue emerged when someone in Greece wanted to score votes after Macedonia's independence from Yugoslavia.
2. To support my claims ("Greece has Nazi attributes"), I gave you the opinions by several relevant institutions:
"RAINBOW party" has been painted over and -- "Death to the 'Skopian Gyspies'" -- has been written around it. "Skopian" is a vulgar Greek reference for Macedonian. Its use has been encouraged by authorities including government ministers and the clergy.
You are trying to dispute the relevancy of the institutions and also to suggest that these reports are falsified on purpose, to support Macedonia's position. I simply don't buy that without hard evidence that supports your claims for each institution.
3. If the institutions above are lying that there is a Macedonian minority in Greece, then how come a Macedonian political party exists in Aegean Macedonia? Are those people Greeks paid by Macedonia's government (a funny parallel to this) to lie about their ethnic feeling? Or is this obvious fact not enough for you to open your eyes, again?
4. There are thousands of people, refugees from Aegean Macedonia, now living in Republic of Macedonia (and all over the world). They all claim they are Macedonians. It is something anyone can check easily - these people are still alive, and they are openly telling their ethnic background. I personally know some, these are real people, not books or reports. BTW, they are complaining why Greece stole their land and now they cannot go back to their homes. Which brings us back to the first issue, the way Greece treats ITS OWN citizens.
Summons Issued by Greek Authorities: A copy of the summons issued by the District Prosecutor (September 6th, 1995) ordering one of the RAINBOW Party members to appear in court on October 14th, 1997. The purpose of the summons was to intimidate RAINBOW members and supporters from using their mother tongue. Macedonians in Greece are under legal pressure to present themselves as Greek.
5. Greece is denying the existence of an entire nation and country, by not recognizing its basic right of self-determination, putting economic embargoes to demonstrate power ("do this or I'll kick your ass") and at the same time oppressing its people internally, forbidding them to speak or learn in their own language (at the same time practicing methods of assimilation and ethnic cleansing), and also at the same time humiliating them with every offensive term they could think of (I am generally talking here about your official government and politicians, but also some citizens do the same). There are reported cases of Macedonian tourists having their car demolished by local nationalistic hooligans, also there is the famous raid on Rainbow's offices by civilian population including some government and local officials. There were also death treats issued to members of the Macedonian political party in Lerin, and also general death treats to Macedonians. Not to mention the treatment that Macedonians are getting from your customs officials at the border...
6. All this is something your country can no longer put under the carpet and hide from everyone, including you. Macedonia has finally won its independence and our voice now can be heard, loud and clear. As you have seen, I can support EVERY claim I make with hard evidence. We are talking here about decades of oppression that your country systematically does on its own citizens, just because they are different, because they speak another language, and have different culture and traditions. At the same time, the same people are heating the nationalism and elitism of ordinary Greek people, to assure they'll remain in power (as we have seen in the latest election campaign). Greece is a friend for some of its citizens, and for some is the worst enemy.
At this point I will stop and remind you that we are talking about a European country, member of the European Union, and signor of thousands of documents that say something else than what is implemented in reality.
Leviathan, I can understand everything that is in stake for your country's policy makers and power-hungry politicians. What I don't understand is why a massive number of Greeks are choosing to turn a blind eye on what's happening in their own yard. Why they are choosing not to do anything to improve that, and even further, they play with the oppressors, speaking as a herd the propaganda they have been brain-washed with. I cannot believe how, in all these years, there isn't a critical mass of Greek intellectuals coming forward in the media and shedding a new, human and friendly light on the issues.
You have to understand, your issue with the name is maybe important to you now, but no name, or right on any history, ancient or not, can be more important than the state-organized terror that is going on for decades, on real people, some of which are your friends or coworkers. And, what is more shocking, Macedonians are not the only ethnic group that is being systematically terrorized by your institutions. I hope you will understand some day.
Bilingual Sign (Macedonian - Greek): The sign was removed by order of the District Prosecutor and the office was burned and ransacked by a mob led by the town's mayor and including police officers.
1. I object to the wrong way Greece is treating Macedonians (among other ethnicities, but Macedonians especially, on this blog). I am not calling all Greek people Nazis, look better, those are your words (conclusion), not mine. I have repeatedly written here that I do not dislike Greek people, but I dislike your country's politics (I dislike some of Macedonia's politics, too, but that's another issue). Furthermore, I stand by the principles of us having different opinions and having every right to defend them, with respect to the differences. During that process, I follow another principle and try not to forget it: "attack the opinion, don't attack the person". I am aware that all countries are imperfect, and that by talking about issues we can resolve the problems. Internet allows us to put the issue on the table so that ordinary people like me and you can discuss it, and I consider that an opportunity we should exploit. I believe that the problem with the name is a fabrication by your politicians, which (obviously) turned out to be something they cannot handle well. My country was "Macedonia" formally for 70 years now, even for Greece, but the issue emerged when someone in Greece wanted to score votes after Macedonia's independence from Yugoslavia.
2. To support my claims ("Greece has Nazi attributes"), I gave you the opinions by several relevant institutions:
- Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)
- Minority Rights Group - Greece (MRG-G)
- Amnesty International (Report on Greece) and
- Human Rights Watch report, based on their fact-finding mission in Aegean Macedonia.
"RAINBOW party" has been painted over and -- "Death to the 'Skopian Gyspies'" -- has been written around it. "Skopian" is a vulgar Greek reference for Macedonian. Its use has been encouraged by authorities including government ministers and the clergy.
You are trying to dispute the relevancy of the institutions and also to suggest that these reports are falsified on purpose, to support Macedonia's position. I simply don't buy that without hard evidence that supports your claims for each institution.
3. If the institutions above are lying that there is a Macedonian minority in Greece, then how come a Macedonian political party exists in Aegean Macedonia? Are those people Greeks paid by Macedonia's government (a funny parallel to this) to lie about their ethnic feeling? Or is this obvious fact not enough for you to open your eyes, again?
4. There are thousands of people, refugees from Aegean Macedonia, now living in Republic of Macedonia (and all over the world). They all claim they are Macedonians. It is something anyone can check easily - these people are still alive, and they are openly telling their ethnic background. I personally know some, these are real people, not books or reports. BTW, they are complaining why Greece stole their land and now they cannot go back to their homes. Which brings us back to the first issue, the way Greece treats ITS OWN citizens.
Summons Issued by Greek Authorities: A copy of the summons issued by the District Prosecutor (September 6th, 1995) ordering one of the RAINBOW Party members to appear in court on October 14th, 1997. The purpose of the summons was to intimidate RAINBOW members and supporters from using their mother tongue. Macedonians in Greece are under legal pressure to present themselves as Greek.
5. Greece is denying the existence of an entire nation and country, by not recognizing its basic right of self-determination, putting economic embargoes to demonstrate power ("do this or I'll kick your ass") and at the same time oppressing its people internally, forbidding them to speak or learn in their own language (at the same time practicing methods of assimilation and ethnic cleansing), and also at the same time humiliating them with every offensive term they could think of (I am generally talking here about your official government and politicians, but also some citizens do the same). There are reported cases of Macedonian tourists having their car demolished by local nationalistic hooligans, also there is the famous raid on Rainbow's offices by civilian population including some government and local officials. There were also death treats issued to members of the Macedonian political party in Lerin, and also general death treats to Macedonians. Not to mention the treatment that Macedonians are getting from your customs officials at the border...
6. All this is something your country can no longer put under the carpet and hide from everyone, including you. Macedonia has finally won its independence and our voice now can be heard, loud and clear. As you have seen, I can support EVERY claim I make with hard evidence. We are talking here about decades of oppression that your country systematically does on its own citizens, just because they are different, because they speak another language, and have different culture and traditions. At the same time, the same people are heating the nationalism and elitism of ordinary Greek people, to assure they'll remain in power (as we have seen in the latest election campaign). Greece is a friend for some of its citizens, and for some is the worst enemy.
At this point I will stop and remind you that we are talking about a European country, member of the European Union, and signor of thousands of documents that say something else than what is implemented in reality.
Leviathan, I can understand everything that is in stake for your country's policy makers and power-hungry politicians. What I don't understand is why a massive number of Greeks are choosing to turn a blind eye on what's happening in their own yard. Why they are choosing not to do anything to improve that, and even further, they play with the oppressors, speaking as a herd the propaganda they have been brain-washed with. I cannot believe how, in all these years, there isn't a critical mass of Greek intellectuals coming forward in the media and shedding a new, human and friendly light on the issues.
You have to understand, your issue with the name is maybe important to you now, but no name, or right on any history, ancient or not, can be more important than the state-organized terror that is going on for decades, on real people, some of which are your friends or coworkers. And, what is more shocking, Macedonians are not the only ethnic group that is being systematically terrorized by your institutions. I hope you will understand some day.
3 comments:
Dear goodbytes, I thought I made my points of view clear and with many evidences.And these evidences and thoughts are just mine and have nothing to do with an official propaganda.I didn't mention any material that is supported by nationalistic groups of people or state documents etc.I referred only to the documents you talked about.
As a member of a NGO I know how easy such an organization can be created and how it works.I made also clear my opinion about this specific NGO. Their site is full of reports on Greece, but not about the discrimination of the Albanian ethnicity in FYROM, when all the international news agencies are full of reports concerning this issue.I also made clear some things about these specific documents you mentioned.
I'm sad to read that you are attacking me personally and not the points and the evidences I wrote about.
I'd be glad to invite you in Greece to see with your eyes the situation you describe.
What is more, creating a party in Greece, as a democratic country is easy.There are so many minoral parties in the so many backyards of Greece, but this doesn't mean that they are appealing to Greek society.
Once again, I'll say that If there was a minority you talk about the would be voters to support this.Sypply and Demand dear goodbytes.
About the people you mention, I didn't wanted to talk about it, mostly because I wanted to be ellegant and respect these people, but you tend to ignore the history of German occupation in Greece and the facts of the Greek civil war.These people (the majority at least) who weren't allowed to return back, played thei role in these periods. As a person who understands politics you should know that it was impossible after the CIVIL WAR, to allow the slavophones to come back, after their cooperation with the Nazis, during the occupation of Greece.This is just politics and well, every group of people is free to make their decisions.Their decision was to seek power through the cooperation with the forces of Nazis and then with the defeated Communists. As you know many Greek Communists weren't allowed to return to their country, too.But for the Slavophones it was also important the fact that they cooperated with the forces of Nazist Germany.
Could you please ask me why these people left Greece?And If these people were forcrd to leave, then how there people who still claim the existance of a Macedonian minority in the small region of Florina?Maybe because the rest weren't cooperated with the Nazis and the Communists?
About the name, I wrote that I don't have a problem with calling yourselves Macedonians.I'm Macedonian, too, so this makes us brothers and part of Greek history.
I hope that we won't make our discussion redicoulous, by writing on the Greek history and Macedonia. There are so many interesting academic books in the international bibliography, from respectfull historians.This is one of the positive components of our discussion so far.
Finally, dear goodbytes, I don't like when people take a sole event and generalise it.I'm afraid that stupid people and nationalistic views exist in every corner of the world, but this doen't represent a whole society.Your opinions tend to be holistic and absolute in many cases.I can understand this approach in discussions like these, but I didn't followed that path, which is the easy path.Politics is not only black and white.
By saying that the problem is a fabrication by our politicians, you just ignore the essence of politics.It takes two to tango in politics.Provocations and rhetoric exist by both sides.Not to mention the flag, the name of the airport and the insisting of FYROM's government not to compromise and to reject any plan of solving the problem.
At the end, you should know that Ouranio Toxo gets close to 3% in the region of Florina and 0,10% in some other regions.Does this numbers make you beleive that there is what you call Macedonian minority?Close to 6.000 in the whole Greek population of 11 million people.
By the way, I totally agree with what you say about the role of Internet.I beleive that internet allows us to come closer and know more about each other.The main reason that I decided to stop by at your blog was my beleief that there can be a serious discussion without generalizations, bad expressions and nationalistic views.
why is the picture with the sign edited in photoshop?.
at least you could have done a better job.
GTherion, if you click on the picture, you will see that it is from the site florina.org. I think it is best that you ask the authors of the photo, EFA Rainbow, why is the photo edited in Photoshop and which corrections were made on it. Perhaps they have some master photo which will persuade you, in whatever your suspicions are.
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